Features

Breaking Faith With Britain

June 2008

The rapid fragmentation of society, the emergence of isolated communities with only tenuous links to their wider context, and the impact of home-grown terrorism have all led even hard-bitten, pragmatist politicians to ask questions about “Britishness”: what is at the core of British identity; how can it be reclaimed, passed on and owned by more and more people?

The answers to these questions cannot be only in terms of the “thin” values, such as respect, tolerance and good behaviour, which are usually served up by those scratching around for something to say. In fact, the answer can only be given after rigorous investigation into the history of nationhood and of the institutions, laws, customs and values which have arisen to sustain and to enhance it. In this connection, as with the rest of Europe, it cannot be gainsaid that the very idea of a unified people under God living in a “golden chain” of social harmony has everything to do with the arrival and flourishing of Christianity in these parts. It is impossible to imagine how else a rabble of mutually hostile tribes, fiefdoms and kingdoms could have become a nation conscious of its identity and able to make an impact on the world. In England, particularly, this consciousness goes back a long way and is reflected, for example, in a national network of care for the poor that was locally based in the parishes and was already in place in the 16th century.

In some ways, I am the least qualified to write about such matters. There have been, and are today, many eminent people in public and academic life who have a far greater claim to reflect on these issues than I have. Perhaps my only justification for even venturing into this field is to be found in Kipling when he wrote, “What should they know of England who only England know?” It may be, then, that to understand the precise relationship of the Christian faith to the public life of this nation, a perspective is helpful which is both rooted in the life of this country and able to look at it from the outside.

As I survey the field, what do I see? I find, first of all, “a descending theme” in terms of Christian influence. That is to say, I find that the systems of governance, of the rule of law, of the assumption of trust in common life all find their inspiration in Scripture; for example, in the Pauline doctrine of the godly magistrate and, ultimately, in the Christian doctrine of God the Holy Trinity, where you have both an ordered relationship and a mutuality of love. As Joan O’Donovan has pointed out, the notion of God’s right, or God’s justice, produced a network of divine, human and natural law which was the basis of a just ordering of society and also of a mutual sense of obligation “one towards another”, as we say at Prayers for the Parliament. Such a descending theme of influence continues to permeate society, but is especially focused in constitutional arrangements, such as the “Queen in Parliament under God”, the Queen’s Speech (which always ends with a prayer for Almighty God to bless the counsels of the assembled Parliament), daily prayers in Parliament, the presence of bishops in the House of Lords, the national flag, the national anthem — the list could go on. None of this should be seen as “icing on the cake” or as interesting and tourist-friendly vestigial elements left over from the Middle Ages. They have the purpose of weaving the awareness of God into the body politic of the nation.

In addition to this “descending theme”, there is also what we might call the “ascending theme”, which comes up from below to animate debate and policy-making in the institutions of state. Much of this has to do with our estimate of the human person and how that affects the business of making law and of governance. Such an estimate goes right back to the rediscovery of Aristotle by Europe — a rediscovery, incidentally, made possible by the work of largely Christian translators in the Islamic world. These translators made Aristotle, and much else besides, available to the Muslims, who used it, commented upon it and passed it on to Western Europe. One of the features of the rediscovery was a further appreciation of the human person as agent by Christian thinkers such as St Thomas Aquinas. They were driven to read the Bible in the light of Aristotle and this had several results which remain important for us today.

One was the discovery of conscience. If the individual is morally and spiritually responsible before God, then we have to think also of how conscience is formed by the Word of God and the Church’s proclamation of it so that freedom can be exercised responsibly. Another result was the emergence of the idea that because human beings were moral agents, their consent was needed in the business of governance. It is not enough now simply to draw on notions of God’s justice for patterns of government. We need also the consent of the governed who have been made in God’s image (a term which comes into the foreground). This dual emphasis on conscience and consent led to people being seen as citizens rather than merely as subjects.

The Reformation also had a view about governance as well as the significance of the individual, which was to prove important for the future. The theme of natural rights was taken up by the Dominicans on the Continent in the context of defending the freedom and the possessions of the indigenous inhabitants of the Americas. From there, it influenced prominent thinkers of the moderate Enlightenment in this country, such as John Locke, who were attempting to rethink a Christian basis for society. This was also the context for the Evangelical revival in the 18th century. While the Evangelicals drew inspiration from the Bible for their humanitarian projects, such as the abolition of slavery, universal education and humane conditions of work for men, women and children, the Enlightenment provided them with the intellectual tools and the moral vision of natural rights so that they could argue their case in the public sphere. It was this Evangelical-Enlightenment consensus which brought about the huge social changes of the 19th and early 20th centuries and which came under sustained attack in the second half of the 20th century.

Sociologists of religion have been telling us that the process of secularisation has been a very long one and, indeed, they locate its origin precisely in the Enlightenment’s rejection of heteronomous authority and its affirmation of autonomy. Historians, on the other hand, point out that faith flourished in industrial Britain in the 19th century and in the first part of the last century. Indeed, it is possible to say that it continued to prosper well into the 1950s. Was it long-term decline, then, or sudden demise? In fact, there are elements of truth in both approaches. It seems to be the case, however, that something momentous happened in the 1960s which has materially altered the scene: Christ­ianity began to be more and more marginal to the “public doctrine” by which the nation ordered itself, and this state of affairs has continued to the present day.

Many reasons have been given for this situation. Callum Brown has argued that it was the cultural revolution of the 1960s which brought Christianity’s role in society to an abrupt and catastrophic end. He notes, particularly, the part played by women in upholding piety and in passing on the faith in the home. It was the loss of this faith and piety among women which caused the steep decline in Christian observance in all sections of society. Peter Mullen and others, similarly, have traced the situation to the student unrest of the 1960s which they claim was inspired by Marxism of one sort or another. The aim was to overturn what I have called the Evangelical-Enlightenment consensus so that revolution might be possible. One of the ingredients in their tactics was to encourage a social and sexual revolution so that a political one would, in due course, come about. Mullen points out that instead of the Churches resisting this phenomenon, liberal theologians and Church leaders all but capitulated to the intellectual and cultural forces of the time.

It is this situation that has created the moral and spiritual vacuum in which we now find ourselves. While the Christian consensus was dissolved, nothing else, except perhaps endless self-indulgence, was put in its place. Happily Marxism, in its various forms, has been shown to be the philosophical, historical and economic nonsense that it always was. But we are now confronted by another equally serious ideo­logy, that of radical Islamism, which also claims to be comprehensive in scope. What resources do we have to face yet another ideological battle?

The scrambling and scratching around of politicians and of elements in the media for “values” which would provide ammunition in this battle are to be seen in this light. As we have seen, however, this is extremely thin gruel and hardly adequate for the task before us. Our investigation has shown us the deep and varied ways in which the beliefs, values and virtues of Great Britain have been formed by the Christian faith. The consequences of the loss of this discourse are there for all to see: the destruction of the family because of the alleged parity of different forms of life together; the loss of a father figure, especially for boys, because the role of fathers is deemed otiose; the abuse of substances (including alcohol); the loss of respect for the human person leading to horrendous and mindless attacks on people; the increasing communications gap between generations and social classes.The list is very long.

Is it possible to restore such discourse to the heart of our common life? Some would say it is not possible. Matters have gone too far in one direction and we cannot retrace our steps. Others would be hostile to the very idea. They have constructed their lives and philosophies around the demise of Christianity as an element in public life, and they would be very inconvenienced if it were to put in an appearance again. It remains the case, however, that many of the beliefs and values which we need to deal with the present situation are rooted in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. Are we to receive these as a gift, in our present circumstances, or, once again, turn our backs on them?

In the context of public discussion, and even in the case of legislation, crude utilitarianism, public approbation or revulsion (the so-called yuck factor) or the counting of heads are being found increasingly unsatisfactory, especially when an estimate of the human person is involved. Nor are the “thin” values of respect, decency and fairness enough. We need something more robust. In such situations, we often find overt or covert appeals to transcendental principles enshrined in the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

When, for example, we are discussing questions of mental capacity, and whether it is ever right to regard someone as having irreversibly lost crucial indicators of being human, or issues to do with the beginnings or end of life, such as abortion, embryonic stem cell research or euthanasia, transcendental principles are often invoked which derive from the Judaeo-Christian tradition. One such, which is to be found in the fundamental documents of the age, is that of inalienable dignity; that is to say, the dignity of the human person cannot be taken away. It inheres in them by virtue of their personhood. The question then remains as to whether there is a human person involved in a particular situation.

I was for some years the chairman of the ethics and law committee of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, and the question that often arose was: at what point does human dignity attach to the embryo or foetus? Now, I take a developmental view of how personhood emerges in the early stages of life, but even if you take such a view, you still have to exercise the precautionary principle because you do not know exactly when there is a person. Is it at conception, at implantation or at the beginning of brain activity or the ability to feel pain? This is why the embryo is treated with special respect in legislation so that we, even unknowingly, do not violate human dignity. The notion that human beings possess dignity which can never be taken away cannot be justified in terms only of public opinion and even less of utilitarianism. It is, in fact, grounded in the biblical idea that humans have been made in the image of God and this gives them a dignity which cannot be violated or removed from them.

Equality is another leading value which we use in a just ordering of society. On the face of it, human beings are not equal: they are rich and poor, black and white, differently abled, male and female. So what is our basis for saying they are equal? During the period of white settlement in Australia, Christian missionaries, in the face of settler opposition, again and again referred to Acts xvii 26: “Out of blood hath he made all the nations of men” as the basis for the equality of the aboriginal peoples with the white and Asian inhabitants. Equality, then, is also rooted in the biblical world-view and extends to the whole of humanity. It is not restricted to those who may belong to a particular faith, ideology or ethnicity.

The idea of liberation is as fundamental in the Bible as that of creation. The freeing of enslaved Israel from its captors has inspired many other captive or oppressed peoples to struggle for their freedom. Freedom, however, has to do not only with political or social liberation. It also has to do with respect for conscience. Once again, this is rooted in the insight of Reformation times that everyone had the right to read the Word of God in their own language and to be formed by it. The freedom and the responsibility of such a citizen are closely related to the development of conscience in the light of the Scriptures.

Freedom is not, of course, absolute. It is only possible in the context of the Common Good, where the freedom of each has to be exercised with respect for the freedom of all. Freedom of belief, of expression, and the freedom to change one’s belief are, however, vitally important for a free society, and the onus must be on those who wish to restrict these in any way to show why this is necessary. Nor can we say that such freedoms apply in some parts of the country and of the world and not in others. The rule of law must guarantee, and be seen to guarantee, such basic freedoms everywhere.

Safety from harm is certainly a leading concern in legislation today but this should not be too narrowly conceived. It depends on the biblical idea of shalom, of wholeness, peace and safety, not only of the individual but also of society as a whole. The debate between Lord Devlin and H. L. A. Hart of Oxford, in the middle years of the last century, was precisely about the scope of the “safety from harm” idea. Was it limited to the individual or did it extend to vital social institutions such as the family? Devlin was clear that it must extend to the latter also, and that fiscal and social legislation should take account of this aspect of safety from harm of a nation’s social capital.

One final value which deserves to be mentioned is that of hospitality. It is indeed ironic that Britain had to cope with large numbers of people from other faiths and cultures arriving at exactly the time when there was a catastrophic loss of Christian discourse. Thus Christian hospitality, which should have welcomed the new arrivals on the basis of Britain’s Christian heritage, to which they would be welcome to contribute, was replaced by the newfangled and insecurely founded doctrine of multiculturalism. This offered “tolerance” rather than hospitality, in some cases benign neglect rather than engagement, and an emphasis on cultural and religious distinctiveness rather than integration. As a succession of social commentators — Lord Ouseley, Trevor Phillips and Ted Cantle come to mind — have pointed out, the result has been segregated communities and parallel lives, rather than an awareness of belonging together and a common citizenship which foster integration and respect for fundamental freedoms for all.

It may be worth saying here that integration does not mean assimilation. It is quite possible for people to be engaged with wider society, to be aware of common values, to speak English and to have a sense of citizenship while also maintaining cultural and religious practices in terms of language, food, dress, worship and so on. The example of the Jewish and Huguenot communities, and of many more recent arrivals, gives us hope that integration and distinctiveness are not incommensurable qualities.

While some acknowledge the debt which Britain owes to the ­Judaeo-Christian tradition, they claim also that the values derived from it are now free-standing and that they can also be derived from other world-views. As to them being free-standing, the danger, rather, is that we are living on past capital which is showing increasing signs of being exhausted. Values and virtues by which we live require what Bishop Lesslie Newbigin called “plausibility structures” for their continuing credibility. They cannot indefinitely exist in a vacuum.

Nor can we be too sanguine that other world-views or traditions will necessarily produce the same values or put the same emphasis on them. Radical Islamism, for example, will emphasise the solidarity of the umma (worldwide community of the Muslim faithful) against the freedom of the individual. Some will give more importance to public piety — in fasting and feasting, calling to prayer and observing prayer time — than others who may wish to stress the interior aspects of the spiritual. There will be different attitudes to the balance between social institutions and personal freedom, and even on how communities should be governed. Instead of the Christian virtues of humility, service and sacrifice, there may be honour, piety and the importance of “saving face”.

The assumptions and values by which we live have been formed in the crucible of the Christian faith and its aftermath, the Enlightenment. This is the result of a quite specific history, and it is not at all necessary that such beliefs and values should arise in or survive in quite different contexts. To argue for the continuing importance of these is not necessarily to argue for the privileging of any Church. It is quite possible to imagine a situation where there is no established Church, but where Christian discourse remains important for public life. For better or for worse, the United States is a good example of such a situation.

The Westphalian consensus is dead. It arose for historical reasons in Europe where it was felt that, for the sake of peace, religion had to be separated from public life. Even then, the identification of religion alone as the decisive factor in the conflict was debatable. We are now, however, in a global context where we will not be able to escape the problems raised by faith for public life. The question, then, is not “should faith have a role in public life?” but what kind of role it should have. Every temptation to theocracy, on every side, must be renounced. There is no place for coercion where the relationship of religion to the state is concerned. But there is room for persuasion; to argue our case in terms of the common good and human flourishing, and to show how these depend on our spiritual vision.

At the same time, government will have to be increasingly open to religious concerns and to make room for religious conscience, as far as it is possible to do so. Religious leaders, for their part, will seek to guide their peoples in the light of their faith and to seek to make a contribution to public life on the same basis. The integrity and autonomy of public authority and of the law will also have to be recognised, and it would be best if religious law in its application were left to the communities and to the free obedience of their members. Public law, however, should continue to provide overarching protection for all.

In the specific case of sharia law, of course, Muslims will continue to be guided by it, but recognising its jurisdiction in terms of public law is fraught with difficulties precisely because it arises from a different set of assumptions from the tradition of law here. The contradictions that emerge would be very difficult to resolve. At the same time, it should be possible for Muslims to contribute to the development of a common life by bringing the maqasid, or principles of the sharia, to bear on the discussion. These have to do with the protection of the individual and of society and can be argued on their own merits without attempting to align two quite different systems of law.

Christian faith has been central to the emergence of our nation and its development. We cannot really understand the nature and achievements of British society without reference to it. In a plural, multi-faith and multicultural society, it can still provide the resources for both supporting and providing a critique of public life in this country. We have argued that it is necessary to understand where we have come from, to guide us to where we are going, and to bring us back when we wander too far from the path of national destiny.

COMMENTS: 44

COMMENTS

Michael Flowers MBE FRCS
May 30th, 2008
10:05 AM
May I add my voice to those many who will be congratulating the Bishop, and thanking God, for his excellent article. There is however an essential ingredient which may have been taken for granted, but which surely needs special mention. That is the fact that a society can only be transformed by citizens who have themselves been transformed. Jesus spells out that without Him and His promised Holy Spirit we simply do not have the power to make it work. With Him, however, all things become possible. Dear Bishop, thank you, and keep speaking out!

Murr
May 30th, 2008
11:05 AM
Christianity's collapse? What planet are you living on? Britain is now more Christian than at any time in the previous 50 years! We just had a Vatican stooge in power for ten years! Wake up and smell the coffee! If only it really would collapse, and all the other ridiculous sky god religions along with it.

Viktor Kaspruk
May 30th, 2008
11:05 AM
I think that this problem existed long ago. But why so late in the UK have begun to analyze it? ..

In Salad
May 30th, 2008
1:05 PM
Islam was once reputed for its learned scholars. What a pity that no such intellectuals exist within the ranks of political Islamists. The best response they can muster is on the Guardian's Comment Is Free- and who does Bunglawala really represent anyway?

Brian
May 30th, 2008
5:05 PM
This is just plain absurd. It isn't the loss of Christianity that is to blame but the overindulgence of religious superstition in the name of multiculturalism and cultural relativism. I hardly think the answer to one brand of evidenceless obscurantism is another, but rather a heary deense of secular values and Enlightenment thinking ala Ayaan Hirsi Ali. We should tolerate both Islam and Christianity until the point that they claim special rights for beliefs for which they can produce no evidence and make moral claims based on the flimsy formulation "God said so."

Bill Hensley
May 30th, 2008
7:05 PM
To Brian: And on what alternate base would you establish the values of dignity, equality, liberty, safety and hospitality, which are essential to the formation of a civil society? These hard-won principles arose from the Christian tradition which you now seek to discard. They will not stand on their own.

the deity formerly known as nigel6888
May 30th, 2008
9:05 PM
Congratulations on this piece. I and many like me are devastated and disappointed that the Christian faith, and its apparent leaders lack the moral fortitude to defend their corner. My Christianity is unashamedly of the muscular variety, I am intensely proud of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and am very much conscious that western civilisation would not exist without it. That is, without this tradition, there would be no "human rights" "womens rights", electricity, industrial revolution, etc etc.

Peter Brawley
May 31st, 2008
3:05 AM
In the UK and Northern Europe, dignity, equality, liberty, democracy, human rights, freedom of conscience, respect for the common good and hospitality became social & political realities not least via rebellion against established religion. These values "stand more strongly" in mainly irreligious societies than in more religious ones---because over the last hundred years or so, worthies in those countries had the wit to toss out idiotic religious superstitions in favour of secularism & humanism. Overall, the more religious a society is, the more crime, poverty, tyranny etc it suffers. That's no accident. Religion debilitates. To argue that we should bring back religion---christian or muslim---is incredibly stupid.

FR Colin Griffiths.S.S.M.
May 31st, 2008
9:05 AM
As an Australian Citizen I am pleased to see Standpoint give such prominace to an article by a Bishop.I feel it is a very good piece , but I am uncomforable with it's general message. Would we be truly in a better place with leaders who were truly confessinfg christians. George Bush certainly gave the impression that he was a christian leader, it has been reported thathis administration made over 900 lies in the lead up to the Iraq war. His former press sectary alleges that his main purpose in going to war was a determination for re election. Jesus called us to laven in the lump , not to be agents of contol and donination.

Oliver Cromwell
May 31st, 2008
11:05 AM
Right on , Rochester! A man after my own heart.

Bill Hensley
May 31st, 2008
4:05 PM
To Peter Brawley: You can as well argue the opposite. The greatest atrocities of the past century have been committed by nations which overtly discarded religion and sought to eliminate its influence. I would also argue that it is a mistake to lump all religions together when you make such sweeping broadsides as "Overall, the more religious a society is, the more crime, poverty, tyranny etc it suffers." With Bishop Nazir-Ali, I argue for the distinctiveness of Christianity as a civilizing influence in human culture. I would agree with you that the Islamic doctrine of jihad, the Hindu caste system, and the fatalism of Buddhist thought are negative influences to be resisted. I would put these in stark contrast to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and and with all your strength and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself."

Peter Brawley
June 1st, 2008
1:06 AM
To Bill Hensley: Religious and irreligious peoples alike have committed great atrocities. That argument doesn’t favour religion. Nor does the argument that christianity had some civilising influence in some earlier, more barbarous times. Amongst western democracies, the more religious a society is, the more criminal and disordered it is. Within such democracies, the more religious the area, the more criminal it is. Not accidental. Religion intentionally and explicitly teaches irrationality, stupidity and intolerance. True, it gives lip service to kinder doctrines. So do Islam and the rest. But the kernel of its instruction is to believe the dogma or be damned.

Bill Hensley
June 1st, 2008
11:06 AM
Now we have gotten quite specific, Peter. I wonder if you could sketch for me the causal link between Christianity and criminality in the Western democracies.

Peter Brawley
June 1st, 2008
4:06 PM
To Bill Hensley: A reasonable, testable explanation for the empirical finding is that religion trains people into irrationality & intolerance, & away from critical, mature thought. Of course a good empirical test would have to distinguish other effects & variables, eg effects of some religious activities on social cohesion.

Norman Hanscombe
June 2nd, 2008
2:06 AM
What a shame fundamentalists of all stipes, be they theists or non-theists, Marxists or Enlightenment Faithful, or anything else, all want to place the blame for the planet's problems at the door of the blind unquestioning beliefs of the adherents of other "answers". None is really interested in examining the role of human nature too carefully, because one thing all faiths have in common is that what they find doesn't always support the kind of "solution" that's too dear to their hearts to risk tight analysis which will endanger their (often noble) plans. Even universities began shying away from analysing popular accepted secular articles of faith in the sixties, so why should religions be held to a higher standard? If we're not careful, next thing you know we'll be questioning astrology, ouija boards, and other growth industries of the sixties. p.s. Your spam test is so difficult to interpret that I began to wonder if I really am human.

Bill Hensley
June 2nd, 2008
3:06 AM
Peter, it appears you have a hypothesis with no data. I don't think there is a causal link between Christianity and criminality. I don't even think there is a correlation between them. Why do you think there is, Peter?

Andrew
June 2nd, 2008
4:06 AM
To Peter Brawley: I like to know why you see religion more as a threat than a chance. Because unconsciously you very well know that the promises of the Entlightement - such as the reign of Universal Reason/Humanism sometime in the future - will or can never be achieved? The Enlightement has produced many great things, but also evils such as communism, nationalism, environmental destruction, etc etc. These evils are proof of the fallen nature of man. Are you rejecting religious truths because you cannot accept than man is by his nature not as reasonable as you need him to be? The rule of Universal Reason, of Humanism only makes sense if man is inherently reasonable - but one can empirically observe in reality that he is not and will never be. I feel this is somewhat at the heart of those who get nervous in the face of religious certainties. The ideals (or dogmas) of the Enlightement are exactly this: mere fantastic ideals, not realities reflecting the nature of man. The not so honorable history of the 20th century shows us to be wary of such a dogmatic understanding of Reason. But religion has never made a case against reason itself. Reason (not as a dogma like in the Enlightement) is deeply imbedded in Christianity. It is time for a truce between reason and faith! It is time to rediscover the roots of reason in our religious tradition without neglecting the good fruits of the Enlightement.

ian tattum
June 2nd, 2008
2:06 PM
It is always interesting to witness the great gulf between the reported words of a commentator and the actuality. I don't agree with all of the bishop's arguments- he slightly understates the role of islamic scholars in bringing Aristotle to the West and overstates the impact of the synthesis between evangelicalism and the enlightenment- the role of Sydney Smith should never be underestimated- on social progress.Over all a thoughtful and informed piece. It is always a pity that the comment section of any journal is so quickly colonised by grumpy atheists who have an alarmingly deficient interest in historical truth or reasoned debate.For people so averse to fairy tales they swallow some secular myths mightily easily!

Iftikhar Ahmad
June 2nd, 2008
3:06 PM
We live in a shrunken world and millions of people are on the move; one of our biggest challenges is how we learn to live in proximity to difference – different skin colours, different beliefs and different way of life. According to a study by COMPAS, Muslims born and educated were given the impression of outsiders. The perception among Muslims is that they are unwelcome in Britain is undermining efforts to help them integrate into wider society. Most of them say that they have experienced race discrimination and religious prejudice. Muslims and Islam is promoted a fundamentalist and separatist by the western elite, which have negative impact on community and social cohesion. The number of racist incidents occurring in London Borough of Redbridge’s schools have reached their highest levels since record begin. A City or a locality, where Muslims are in majority is a ghetto. There is a tendency for people of similar backgrounds to live together in neighourhoods. The term”ghettoisation” is inappropriate. The original ghettos in Europe during the middle ages were set up by law to confine the Jewish population to one area of a city. According to a research by an Australian academic that Muslim communities in Britain are being increasingly ghettoized in a trend that set back hopes of assimilation by years. Britain has now eight cities in the top 100 most ghettoized cities. The people from the Pakistani community in Bradford and Oldham and Leicester had trebled during the decade. A report by an academic Dr Alan Carling, that Bradford risks becoming a front line in the global clash between the West and Islam. But Islam and Muslims do not clash with the concepts of pluralism, secularism and globalisation. The native flight from Bradford’s inner-city wards showed clear evidence of an increase in segregation in the city since 1991. Native parents are avoiding sending their children in state schools where Muslims and other minorities are in majority. The dominance of Pakistani Muslims in the city has meant that Bradford has become bi-cultural. Immigrants are the creators of Britain new wealth, otherwise, inner cities deprived areas could not get new lease of life. The native Brits regard such areas as ghettoes. Integration is not religious and cultural, it is economic and Muslims are well integrated into British society and at the same time they are proud of their Islamic, linguistic and cultural identities, inspite of discrimination they have been facing in all walks of life. According to UN, 80% of British Muslims feel discriminated. They are less burden on social services. Immigrants made up 8.7% of the population, but accounted for10.2% of all collected income tax It is often quoted by the Western media that Muslim schools ghettoizse the children, and even lead to their radicalisation if they are not integrated. There is no evidence that faith schools lead to a “ghettoized education system. In British schools, pupils are encouraged to focus too much on their similarities rather than their differences. The integrationist approach merely results in Muslims feeling that their faith, language and culture is not respected. Iftikhar Ahmad www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

Peter Brawley
June 2nd, 2008
5:06 PM
To Bill Hensley: Some of the empirical findings are in a well known paper in J Relig Sci. You asked for an explanation of them. Science proceeds by replicating facts, conjecturing explanations, and testing them---thereby finding more facts. If you want to take a scientific approach to relationships between religion & crime, that's what you do.

Peter Brawley
June 2nd, 2008
5:06 PM
Andrew, you’ve no info about what I “unconsciously” know, or what I might “need” humankind to be. As far as I know, I don't need humankind to be anything. By definition “religious certainty” (like some other certainties) is delusional. Religion opposes reason ever time it trains a person to believe religious fairy tales over rational analysis of evidence.

Bill Hensley
June 3rd, 2008
2:06 AM
Peter, thank you for the explanation of the scientific method. However, what I was asking for is the evidence which supports your assertions. You have proposed a hypothesis which I consider contrary to reason and experience: that there is a causal link between Christianity and criminality in the Western democracies. I asked why you believe that. You mentioned an article in a journal unfamiliar to me. Can you provide a link to the article? If not, could you summarize it for me here? Of course, I am interested in the data and not just the conclusions.

Brian
June 3rd, 2008
4:06 PM
To Bill Hensley: You have got to be kidding. The Bible teaches none of those values - one need not be a Christian to believe in any of these values you specify. Like all moderate enlightened Christians,, you have smuggled enlightenment values into the text, choosing to ignore things that don't support them. All those uncomfortable parts about child marriage, god-sanctioned genocide, etc. are chlaked up to "historical contingency" while the pleasant teachings of Jesus (of which Paul and others seemed either ignorant or more or less unconcerned with) are held up as fine moral teachings despite that fact that not a single sentmiment therein can't also be found in an earlier pagan work. And it wasn't their atheism that led to the depradations of communism and other totalatarisms, it was their commitment to worldviews, ideologies, and truth claims that were eerily similar in form to those of religion.

S Lawyer
June 3rd, 2008
7:06 PM
Methinks the bishop wants to turn Britain into a Christian republic the way some Pakistani generals turned Pakistan into an Islamic republic. Please spare us the theocratic nonsense, Dr Nazir-Ali. And stop trying to be the unthinking man's Francis Shaffer.

John D
June 3rd, 2008
10:06 PM
The objectivist moral claims of Judeo-Christian values have been replaced by Relativist 'values'. Relativism cannot stand up to a self-confident objectivist Islamism especially when the latter is backed by the treat of violence (eg Muhammad cartoons). Many Relativists undermine Judeo-Christian objective values, and give Islamism a free pass.

Anonymous
June 4th, 2008
3:06 AM
The truth is that if you really do your homework in truly honest and rigorous manner you will find that that there is no basis in Truth and Reality for any of the usual Christian beliefs or propositions. Which is not to say that the Indivisible Conscious Light that IS Real God does not exist.

Bill Hensley
June 4th, 2008
5:06 AM
Brian, of course you will find some elements of truth in most religions. Almost no one gets everything wrong! But each of the values mentioned by Bishop Nazir-Ali does in fact find full expression in the Christian scriptures. Human dignity: "Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king." (I Peter 2:17) Equality: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28) Liberty: "You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love." (Galations 5:13) Safety: "The commandments, 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:9-10) Hospitality: "Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it." (Hebrews 13:2) Just to illustrate the unity of thought in the New Testament I pulled all of the above from the Epistles rather than the Gospels. Certainly each of these values was also taught by Jesus himself. Critics of Christianity like to treat the Bible piecemeal. They try to set Paul against Jesus, and the New Testament against the Old. But if you want to understand the core teachings of Christianity, I encourage you to focus on the whole New Testament, taken together, as being the final and fullest revelation of God's message to us. The Old Testament does not contradict the New, but must be understood in light of it. A complete picture of God must include both his judgement of sin and his sacrificial love. If you focus on one to the exclusion of the other you get a distorted picture. These values did not suddenly appear in Europe during the Enlightenment. It is better to say that the Enlightenment thinkers tried to liberate these ideas from their Christian substrate. In so doing, they unintentionally made them easier to discard in later centuries when such concepts became inconvenient to those who desired to wield absolute power with no moral constraints on their actions. When one understands that these values are rooted in the commandments of Almighty God it is evident that the cannot be ignored without disastrous consequences.

Steve Meikle
June 7th, 2008
7:06 PM
Europe was never christian for all its self proclamation thereof. when Europe called itself christian they burned heretics and disembowelled traitors: such curelty is at total variance to the commandment of christ to love one another and to show mercy. Thus it was never christianity that was abandoned, rather the pretense. And thank God, I say. After all would you really want to be legally compelld to go to churh every sunday on pain of a fine that constituted a day or more of your pay (as in Elizabethan England) Human nature is such that no public religion that calls itself christianity will ever be such. And this is because Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world.

Steve Meikle
June 7th, 2008
8:06 PM
Too any people think that civility, honesty, loyalty to parents etc are christian values. This would only be the case if they, or their invocation, were unique to the gospel of christ. But they aren't. Confucius advocated these self same things. Aztecs brought up their children to be this also, even when they slaughtered prisoners of war for their gods. Christianity is something else, a love i have never seen in any church. Thus the church and public religion of Europe for the last 1700 years was never christianity. As for democracy stemming from christianity, the limitation of royal power was a germanic idea in which the king was the first of equals among his war band. There is in fact no trace of democracy in the Bible I am a convinced christian, but let us not obscure the issue by bad history or sentimental adherance to a cultural tradition

Mo
June 9th, 2008
7:06 AM
Iftikhar Ahmad: It's a chicken-and-egg problem. Muslims behave badly and think they're treated badly. Which came first? Does it matter? The larger issue is whether Britain should change to accommodate Muslims. I don't think it should. And if Muslims disagree and insist on living in a manner that is not only alien to Britain but in many respects opposed to it then they have no choice but to live in ghettoes or leave the country. We non-Muslims ought to make it easy for Muslims to prosper if they live in harmony with our culture, deferring to our ways, and extremely difficult to do so otherwise. If Islam had deep roots in the country I might argue otherwise, but it doesn't. There were 20,000 Muslims in the country in 1950. Most of the two million who are here now came looking for a better life. If they or their children haven't found it, it should be just as easy to go away.

Robert Callow
June 9th, 2008
11:06 AM
Yes bishop, a justified concern does exist over the absence of moral development in a growing proportion of children in western society. There is a justified concern also being expressed in many western countries over the inadequate deterrents reflected in the sentences or punishments now being given to the worst kind of criminals, i.e. those who are guilty of having complete contempt for their victims. Yes, these concerns are nothing new, since the 1960s many including myself have watched this situation grow steadily worse as decreasing deterrents and a forsaking of established values have worked as an incentive for all kinds of evil. But probably the greatest concern for me right now is that we live in a democracy where the majority of voters have freely and repeatedly elected politicians who, in these last few decades, have continued passing legislation that allows and encourages evil to increase. Despite all of the promises from politicians, nothing effective comes from them, nothing is being achieved by them that would curb and overcome this worsening evil in our society. Under this growing and yet deceptive evil many of the electorate have grown ignorant, having now only contempt for the truth; and for as long as enough of these blind and gullible voters continue to hold sway at elections, so also will evil naturally continue to increase in strength, but not just in the West: Working through unseen enemies of the West, a most dangerous evil with all it's twisted reasoning and paranoia is growing and reaching out for the knowledge and power to destroy cities. Leaders of the revival of radical Islam who are now affecting millions with their extreme hatred for the growing depravity working through offensive western culture, which threatens to dominate or destroy their faith, have already begun their quest for weapons of mass destruction. A growing number of Muslims then, as they become radicalized, are able to believe more easily they are the ones fighting the just war and that it is good for them to offer their lives to kill or maim whoever seriously threatens their religion and authority... and let no one underestimate how Islam controls those who take the word and the way of this religion seriously...

Anonymous
June 9th, 2008
4:06 PM
Generalisations abounding: 'doctrine of jihad', 'caste system', Buddhist 'fatalism. How glib, & easy to dismiss what one doesn't begin to know or understand. What could be closer in so many regards than the 3 monothestic, Abrahamic religions? Those whose followers at times go at each other vigorously, furiously, & unfortunately, even viciously. The more I travel and live in various continents, the more I find people have in common, and the differences appear in a relative perspective. On the other hand, I find it sheer horror to deal with the kind of divisiveness that professedly religious people manage to spew, and tangle up in cultural, ethnic, etc frays.

Mik
June 10th, 2008
5:06 AM
There is a lot of insecurity and confussion in Britain otday. This has had a terrible effect on its youth. Studies have confirmed this. A young person having the same faith as the Queen is punished because she does not bless gay marriage. Thwo others were threatened with arrest by a British police officer - a Muslim, I believe - because they were talking about their faith to some muslims. Apparently, they have no right to be in that part of London! It's a Muslim area!!!

Christopher Brown
June 10th, 2008
4:06 PM
Fear, Fear and another time Fear. Given the fact that the Church as a whole gave up the prohibition of usury, is it any wonder that the church has been marginalised as a force for social justice? The prohibition of usury is divine and when you throw it out then all other aspects of faith become relative along with it. The next battle is not with Islam or the Muslims, it is with the injustice and inequality brought upon us by the banking, corporate, and stock exchange systems.

Mik
June 11th, 2008
5:06 AM
Atheistic leaders in the USSR and China slaughtered millions of their own citizens. Millions more were tortured and those that are alive will not agree with some of the outlandish statements made by religion-knockers here.

John Scott
June 11th, 2008
1:06 PM
The intellectual history outlined here is, frankly, so oversimplified as to be incredibly misleading (an obvious example, one cannot simply lead from the neo-Scholastics concerned with the Americas to John Locke: a hundred years and Northern European permutations are something of a gaping chasm). We are fortunate indeed that the current Archbishop of Canterbury is not given to making such intellectually dubious pronouncements.

Richard Calhoun
June 12th, 2008
11:06 AM
The Churches only have themselves to blame, they have conspired with socialism since 1945 and abdicated their responsibility to the people to the 'Welfare State'

Miles Sinclair
June 25th, 2008
7:06 AM
If christians want to believe in their god, then go ahead. BUT - if you are planning on "sharing" the good news that we all deserve death and eternal punishment - and that is what we will get if we don't believe what you believe, then expect a challenge. And it will be loud, and reasoned and equally passionate.

Amy Jayne
June 26th, 2008
10:06 PM
This should not be about whose religion is "right" or "wrong". This should be about the ability of out nation's religions - and athiests - to co-exist without conflict or without the need to overshadow one-another. I am only 19 and yet I am greatly saddened by what I see has become of this once great country. Britain is weak and lacking in identity. This is nothing to do with how many Muslims we have, how many Christians we have or how many Hindus we have. It is to do with how many horrible, nasty excuses for human beings we have roaming our streets and running our country, and the rifts that they driving open between our many wonderful communities. The religious and non-religous alike should be uniting against these hatemongers, not each other.

Robert Callow
June 27th, 2008
5:06 AM
Miles, The bad news is that because of man's increasingly deceitful and proud state of mind, we are willfully killing ourselves at an increasingly alarming rate: The knowledge and power to completely destroy deluded mankind becomes increasingly more available to an increasing number of people who are growing increasingly more evil. The good news however, is that God has made known to us how to overcome this death culture and to look forward to His promised paradise where the infinite imagination of the Spirit of truth is the infinite realm of everything, where pure love's endless glory is perfect love's free and endless creation. Freedom is the freedom to choose.

RacFos19
July 3rd, 2008
1:07 AM
When I was young I attended Church every Sunday with my family and was ridiculed for doing so by the neighbourhood children. As I grew up and learnt more about religion and the world in general: new discoveries, technologies and ideologies I too turned away from God. How in an age of reason could a person believe in and worship children's stories and fairy tales? And then I continued to grow up and discovered that although one didn't necessarily have to believe in the supernatural aspects of God one could believe in his teachings. Being a good and moral person how could one scorn the teachings of the bible? I was happy to discover that a man born some two hundred years ago thought along the same lines that I was thinking, I am of course referring to Thomas Jefferson, the 3rd President of America, who took a pair of scissors to the Bible and cut out the supernatural aspects and repackaged it as "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth". However after looking at the long-term impacts that removing the Church and God from studies, as he perpetrated, and day to day life I realised that you can't have one without the other. Some think that I am quite childlike in my belief that man can and will be better. At one time politicians were of quite good moral stock, yes you could always find a bad apple in the barrel but generally speaking recent history has shown that those who democratically governed us did so with truth and honesty. I do not believe that it is childish or naive to think that that time will come again, and is, in fact, closer than we realise. Politicians today have a bad rap and in most cases quite deservedly, but the new generation of politicians will learn from their predecessors they will see that they cannot base their careers and campaigns on lies and deceit because it is getting harder and harder to fool the public, and so the new stock of politicians wont be the same mealy mouthed rats that we have grown so accustomed too. They will be of the most impeccable scruples, morals and decentness. To believe in God is not to believe in "sky Gods" to believe in the teachings of God is not to believe in "nonsense" it is to believe in the better nature of man and to believe that man can and will be better. God doesn't insist that you genuflect to him, or that you partake in costly rituals. He only asks that you love him and that you love your neighbour. God will forgive even the most destitute sinner if that sinner truly repents. God is merciful but only if the mercy is deserved, many people have the mistaken belief that if you say sorry for your sins that it gives you leave to sin again: because you can always say sorry again and God loves you and will forgive you. God does love you and he will always forgive you, but remember whatever God does to you he does because he loves you. If you are of the stock that sins, makes a false apology and then sins again, he will find a way of making you truly repent before opening the doors of Heaven to you.

kentun8
July 13th, 2008
11:07 PM
To go back to the article... does anyone really know what the bishop was saying? He proposed "a rigorous investigation into the origins of nationhood", to show, I think, that Christian values moulded those that are essentially British. But his grasp of historical development is not just fuzzy but absent altogether. To cite one secular example, there was no consensus between Evangelicalism and the Enlightenment, the former arose in protest against the latter's diminishment of faith and Biblical belief. In his own backyard of church governance, the founding documents of Anglicanism, - the preface to the 1662 Prayer Book and the Thirty-Nine Articles - reflect the pervasive influence of secular values such as political tolerance, individual rights (mostly founded on property), and respect for personal conscience on the life of the church, rather than the other way round. And a phrase "The Westphalian consensus is dead" suggests that he does not even know what the Treaties of Westphalia were concerned with - the right of an outside force to interfere across national frontiers to right what it perceives as a moral wrong; if the concept of nationhood that grew ut of those treaties is really dead, why are we tying ourselves in knots about conditions inside Zimbabwe's borders, as we did over Bosnia, Kosovo, etc? I know the bishop is the media's conservative darling, but he is not the real article. He has no sense of the abiding values of the Anglican church, its tolerance, its constant adjustment to secular values, and its continuous self-criticism. As one of the bishop's flock, I have listened intently and repeatedly to his sermons, and I know him personally to be a kind and charming man, but I have never known him present an intelligent, clearly argued statement of what he actually believes.Or more alarmingly still, what he actually knows.

zodiaclove
September 30th, 2008
11:09 AM
hola I can't agree with what you said really.... please ellaberate a bit more for me ;D thank you

D. Thornton
October 2nd, 2008
7:10 PM
Kentun8 - I have also heard the bishop speaking, & am extremely impressed by his grasp of what is happening in this country. As for the Anglican church's "constant adjustment to secular values" - that is its nemesis: it is becoming secularised & will eventually have no purpose for existing.

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